DHMA Interview with Earl King 7/15/00 (unedited transcript of audio recording)
Transcription: Carolle Uithoven
Transcription Notes
Transcription consultant: Scott Barretta
Interview conducted by Curtis Obeda, guitarist/bandleader of the Butanes, for the Down Home Music Archives. Produced by Carolle Uithoven, DHMA Project Director. Interview coordinated by Butanes bassist John Lindberg. Present at interview: Felix Ybarra, West Michigan Blues Society.
Interview location: Hospitality tent at the 2000 Kalamazoo (Michigan) Blues Festival.
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CU: Felix is just gonna listen in because he's doing quotes for an article, and he'll just pick out a few quotes to use in his article about the festival, if that's okay.
CO: I only have one question, now--Earl and I will sit and talk for two hours, so---
CU: I have a hundred and forty-seven minutes on this disc.
CO: Well, what are you actually looking for? I mean, you're gonna edit this, right, so, I mean, if there's some extraneous nonsense---alright.
CU: Yup. You go on as long as you want, because we may use it for several different shows, too......
CO: Alright, Earl, you ready? Here we go. I'm doing the interview now---I'm the interviewer.
EK: Okay, okay.
CO: So if I ask you what you think is a dumb question, you gotta answer it anyway, 'cause I might know the answer, but they wanna know the truth. Alright-- you ready?
EK: (cackle) Yeah.
CO: Alright. Earl--now, we've been playing together awhile--what do you think, is it about thirteen years since you met the Butanes?
EK: Yeah, about that.
CO: So, tell me, how did that come about?
EK: Well, from one gig in Minnesota, at the Blues Saloon. That's where it all started at.
CO: And do you remember what happened...did your agent say, uh, I have this band, or did he say, I have a gig, or how did you decide to work with us?
EK: No, he say he had heard a tape on the Butanes.
CO: Oh, so you had to give us thumbs up on that, huh, Mr. King?
EK: No, I didn't listen at it, he listened at it.
CO: Alright.
EK: Yeah. He say the group is a great group. And that's how that began.
CO: I appreciate that. And, shortly thereafter, you invited us to come down to Jazz Fest to play with you. Do you remember that first year we came down to Jazz Fest?
EK: That's right. Yeah, that was the big----the whole band.
CO: That's right, we had all ten pieces with us down there that night.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm tryin' to wonder if that was the time we got rained out.
CO: It was, Earl. Tell 'em about that rainstorm of the century we ran into.
EK: Huh?
CO: Tell 'em about that rainstorm we ran into.
EK: You talkin' about at the Jazz Fest?
CO: That's right.
EK: Oh man, that was ridiculous... but,I mean, there's nothin' we could do about it. I mean, we had a good time partying, but we couldn't play.
CO: Well, the thing I remember about that date is, I walked up to the news stand in the morning, and it said "Jazz Fest goes on rain or shine"--and you had left a message with me at the hotel saying "we're cancelled." And, I walked into the lobby of the hotel--and the most disappointed member of our band was Earl King. You really wanted to play that day.
EK: Yeah. That was---that'd been a great thing for 'em to hear the Butanes in full force. You know what I'm sayin'?
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah. I've heard it, but they didn't hear it. You know, that was the thing, you know, and that would have been a good thing. You know, say it like Martha Stewart---that would have been a good thing. You know?
CO: We've had fun in the last couple years.
EK: Yeah. Yeah.
CO: So now, Earl, I know you've been recording for a long time, Marty called 50 years you've been in the music industry. I think it's not quite that long---but, what was your first recording and what was it---who did you record for and under what name?
EK: Well, they said something on the tube about my first recording was with Specialty Records, that's not so. The first recording was with Savoy. I was a teenager. And they say you got to get your parents to sign. But I signed. Since it was done through the mail, I signed.
CO: Well, your father was dead.
EK: Huh?
CO: Your father was dead. He had passed.
EK: Yeah, my mother was alive, she right next door, but I signed the papers. 'Cause I could sign just like her anyway. 'Cause I used to cheat on---
CO: You had practice at that.
EK: Yeah, look, I had cheated---I had cheated in school when my report card come up. I signed the thing like my momma did it. I could sign her handwriting right now, real fast.
CO: And what was that first thing that you cut for Savoy? Remember the songs you cut?
EK: Yeah. "Have You Gone Crazy" was one and the flip side was "Beggin' At Your Mercy".
CO: Alright. And what name did they issue that under?
EK: That was under Earl Johnson.
CO: That's right, Earl Johnson.
EK: Yeah. The guy was the A&R man for that was Herman Lubinsky. Later years he started managin' Della Reese and all those big muck-mucks, then, you know.
CO: Now I recall that you have some recordings under the name Handsome Earl. Can you tell me about those?
EK: Yeah. 'Cause Ace Records---the people, the distributors--said, "You ain't got nobody but Earl King on that label?" And Johnny Vincent thought of a gimmick. He changed the label to Vin Records. He still kept Ace. Changed to Vin--put me under Handsome Earl on there, so the people'd think that's somebody different. That's what that was about.
CO: And, please tell the folks how you got your current stage name. You're no longer Handsome Earl, you're no longer Earl Johnson, how did you become Earl King?
EK: Well, I read some articles, but it's incorrect, like, uh, Art Rupe --see, when you send in records--
CO: Art Rupe was from Specialty Records, now.
EK: Yeah. That's what Johnny was workin' for--Johnny Vincent. But, when you send in a record, you don't put on there--you put the last name first--
CO: Right. Correct.
EK: Okay. So, uh, I read a article where they said, Art Rupe did that deliberately. That's not true. They put the name on there, "King"--which s'posed to be the last name--and then "Earl". And the pressing plant got it all confused, and they put "Earl King", 'cause they say that "King" supposed to be the last name, and, you know...
CO: That's right. So you were actually supposed to be "King Earl"--
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CO: "King Earl Johnson", but they ended up thinking that "King" was your last name, so you'd be called "Earl King".
EK: Yeah. Yeah. And so that's how that came. So they left it stay that way. Yeah.
CO: Now, as I recall, there was an interesting twist to that. When you were a teenager you got married very young--
EK: Correct.
CO: --and you wrote a very hit record about your relationship with your first wife, and she didn't realize that you were Earl King. Where did you run into her again? You remember in Chicago?
EK: Oh! In Chicago! Yeah, yeah.
CO: And what record did you write about your relationship with your first wife?
EK: Well, I'd have to attribute that to "Mama and Papa".
CO: "Mama and Papa" and "Trick Bag", right?
EK: Yeah. And "Trick Bag" with "Mama and Papa" is--
CO: That's a true story, isn't it?
EK: --a true story, yeah. It was fun back in them days, when I look back on 'em. It wasn't fun when it was happenin'... but, I could look back on those things and say, "We' hey---(sings) You better know what you're doin', honey child"--you know, and that's the thing. All that stuff was cut round the same time. You know? And--
CO: There was a theme running through there, wasn't there? Didn't your mother tell you not to marry that woman?
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it was about.
CO: And that's how you got the blues.
EK: Yeah. You got that right. You got that right.
CO: Now, I know that you've been involved with many other recording labels, and one of my favorite just got reissued on CD; and what label was that that Henry Hildebrand Jr. started out of the one-stop in New Orleans that you used to hang out at?
EK: Well, his daddy was the first one--uh, Joe Assunto owned the one-stop, and he and Henry Hildebrand, Sr. was good friends, and they formed the Watch label and they recorded Professor Longhair. Matter of fact, that's the label Professor Longhair come out on with "Big Chief". You know, and after Henry died his son took over the business--many years later, after Henry died, that his son really got--Henry Hildebrand had a distributorship. He was distributing records.
CO: That's right.
EK: And later he got the idea that he wanted to get into the commercial part of it, the record business. And, uh, after he passed away his son was runnin' the distributorship, he decided he wanted to pick up where his daddy left off. So that's why you hear the compilation that you hear out here now. That's because of Henry--Warren-- Hildebrand.
CO: Right.
EK: Yeah.
CO: Now this compilation has your name on the front but nothing credited to you as the performer. It's got--
EK: The only one they got--
CO: It's got a very large number of songs that you wrote--
EK: I know why they put my name on there, they were playin' politics.
CO: Right.
EK: See, I'm singin' on Professor Longhair's tune.
CO: But you are uncredited.
EK: Yeah. But on his first album that he put out on Mardi Gras records, he got me credited on that.
CO: I did not know that.
EK: Yup. He got me credited on there all the way through that. So, on this thing, he was usin' a little gimmick--he say, well I'll put Earl' name on there. And they gonna try to see will--but I'm singin' on Professor Longhair, 'cause Professor Longhair's on there.
CO: And as I recall, wasn't that--that was supposed to be what, what we call when you cut it, you're just gonna do a quick vocal, you're gonna just do a dub vocal, and you're gonna--Professor Longhair was supposed to come back and re-sing that later.
EK: And overdub it, 'cause he couldn't learn the words.
CO: And what did he do to his left hand during that recording session?
EK: He tied it behind his back.
CO: 'Cause he couldn't learn that left hand bass line.
EK: No. He couldn't learn that, and, uh, Curtis Mitchell, the bass player on "Big Chief", Curtis Mitchell--the guy on the one-stop say, "Look--Fess, don't worry 'bout the bass line, Curtis got the bass line." Curtis were playin' the line to a T.
CO: That's right.
EK: And Wardell Quezergue, the arranger, he didn't know how Curtis knew the lines already, because we had did that previously to do an instrumental on "Big Chief", many years before that. Yeah.
CO: And for many people, they might not understand, Wardell is one of the finest arrangers in the city of New Orleans.
EK: Yeah.
CO: He's very uncredited--worked with Allen Toussaint, worked with the Meters, the Neville Brothers, Dr. John--
EK: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah--you name it.
CO: --and he brought in--how big was that horn section on "Big Chief"?
EK: We did fifteen pieces ensemble on that. Yeah. It don't sound like it on the record because the quality of the studio wasn't pronounced where it could deliver what was done. But if you was in the studio and heard that when it was goin' on, it was unbelievable. Yeah. Professor Longhair' composition was unbelievable. You know and, uh, they had the Mardi Gras Indians and all that in there. They was in there givin' that spirit, you know, givin' the spirit of what was goin' on. But, ah, Fess--the greatest thing about Fess was, Fess was always a nonchalant person about things, and uh, when we rehearsaled the song in the beginning Fess assumed that that was gonna be four pieces on there, a rhythm section. So, I'm sittin' on the piano with him and he said, "Earl--who is all these musicians in here?" And I play it dumb. I said, "I don't know." And he say, "Oh, they're probably gonna record after we finish." Like that, he say, they probably gonna record 'dwe finish. So, when the thing came on and Fess went (sings) "deh deh de-de-de, deh deh deh--deh--deh" that was okay, and everything. He played the intro and when it got--in the part one, they got a horn slam in there, where they come in. Them guys was sittin' up there with the music and everything, and they hit that thing on that augmented chord--WOW! And Fess hit that piano and stopped and said, "Earl. Who told them to do that? They're not supposed to be playin' on this." I wanted to laugh so bad. I didn't want to laugh at him--hey--he'd had no idea them guys was on the session, that that what they supposed to do. Wardell had wrote that thing, that slam. When I was playin' originally on that, I got a diminished chord in there, I put in there, and Wardell wrote it just to the letter, just like it was--
CO: Right.
EK: --but anyway, so I said, "Cool down,Fess"--'cause he's very nonchalant about stuff, very naive about things; and you could easily trick Fess into anything you know, tell him--'cause he easygoin', very easygoin'--and, uh, them guys played and he looked at 'em and he say, like--he say, "Yeah, I'm gonna go along with this--" he say, "still-- but I don't like what's happenin'." 'Cause he couldn't understand that they were gonna have a big band. He thought they were gonna be four pieces on that, and that was it. 'Cause Fess is the kind of person, what he was like--you don't change nothin' on the set. "Oh, maybe we could change this or do that"--you can't do that with Fess. Once he practice somethin' it go that way. Ain't no other way. That's the way that go. No gettin' in the studio and change the go-round, say--oh, I think this is, uh-- we could improve this little thing here. No. You can't do that with Fess. And, I was happy that they used that kind of ensemble, with fifteen pieces. 'Cause I put it Wardell' head, and he put it in Chief' head, and he said--I said--"Wardell. You know I hear about fifteen pieces on this tune." He say, "Yeah, me too." He say, "But when I tell Chief about this, he gonna go up the wall about the money." You got to pay off all these people, man. And sure enough, Chief went up the wall--but, by Wardell tellin' it to him, he knew Wardell' credibility, he went along with it. But that was my idea, puttin' that on there. I pushed it off on Wardell.
CO: Right. Now, Professor Longhair is known as a seminal piano player in New Orleans...he's almost idolized and lionized by young people today. But, as you said, he practiced--and he did it the way he did it. But Professor Longhair didn't consider himself a musician, did he?
EK: Nope.
CO: What was his profession?
EK: Actually--Professor Longhair could have been a drummer. He really coulda been. 'Cause he had some unorthodox way of playin' with rhythm. Even when he wa' playin' piano he used to beat on the--play a solo, he'd beat on the upright piano at the bottom with his foot. He beat on, on the--matter of fact, "Big Chief" he showed Smokey what he wanted the drums to do.
CO: And Smokey is the drummer? What Smokey?
EK: Yeah. Smokey Johnson.
CO: Smokey Johnson. Who also played on--?
EK: Everything. "Trick Bag", you could name it. Everything. Smokey--Smokey Johnson, his song was "It Ain't My Fault".
CO: That's right. Tell 'em what happened to his song.
EK: Yeah. Oh, that's caught up in litigation now. Big time stuff. You know, 'cause, uh, Master P recorded it and Mariah Carey cut it and everything; and they got that tied up in litigation right now. It's really crazy. But Smokey was one of--
CO: What's old is new and what's new is old.
EK: Yeah. But, uh, Smokey--Smokey come along--see, what they--what was goin' on in New Orleans was everybody used to think that the people came to New Orleans--all the major companies--come there for the piano players. That's not so. That's a total myth. We had the great piano players there, but the major labels--Atlantic and all them people--they didn't come there for that. They came there for the drums. New Orleans have a history of turnin' out drummers, and--one after the other, one after the other--it's the drummin' thing. The first one they had 'round there were Earl Palmer. Before Earl Palmer left to go to the west coast, he predicted, he told us, said, "When I leave here, that guy gonna be in the studio." He was talkin' about a guy named Charles Williams. We call 'im Hungry. Okay? Bingo. Then after Hungry was Smokey. Then after Smokey was a guy come into bein' named, um, Mean Willie Green. No, I'm sorry, Zigaboo. It was Zigaboo. Zigaboo.
CO: I was gonna say put Zig in there because Mean Willie's still playin' on the road, as I recall, with the Neville Brothers.
EK: --the Neville Brothers, yeah. Zigaboo. And, quiet as it kept, Art Neville got Zigaboo first with the Meters. He always get the drummer 'cause he had John Boudreaux. But I didn't get no instance out of John Boudreaux because Allen Toussaint used to really could play. Because Allen had a colder thing. He liked to do it this way. You know? So he kept him playin' a straight four on the drums on everything. You listen at all of many records, it's straight four on the drums--chik, chik, chik--and that's it. He wanted the guitar players to play the same thing, them chinks, with the drummer. You know?
CO: But Zig didn't do that. He said, "Yes, Allen" and then played what he wanted, didn't he?
EK: Yeah. Yeah. But Zig cut out. Zig lef' 'em--they wouldn't use Zig no more because they were doin' Dr. John in Miami--Zig walk off the session. Yeah. Because of that reason, you know. "You all got to play my drums." You know: "I don't need no dictator." I don't need no dictator, yeah.
CO: "Don't tell me what to do." Right.
EK: So, those people and Allen didn't use Smokey too much. Because of that reason. And neither Hungry, as much as he loved Hungry. You know? 'Cause he couldn't tell--he say, "What do I tell Hungry to play? I can't tell him nuttin' to play." You couldn't. He's unbelievable, man. Hungry was a, a, a champion o' all drummers.
CO: And now there's another name I'd like to mention who I think is a great drummer. He's on one of your most recent recordings, and he has a reputation as being a great drummer who talks too much. Herman Ernest.
EK: Oh, Herman is a great drummer. But, see, he come from that pattern, he come from that pattern of Smokey Johnson and all them. See, he done listened at Zigaboo, Smokey, and all that. That's why I say it go on and on with them drummers who been list'nen'. Zigaboo tol' me somethin' that 'stonished me. That CD you talkin' about, with Dell Stewart on it, he's the drummer. Zigaboo tol' me, he say, "Earl"--we got a nickname for Dell Stewart, they call him B.B. Daddy--he say, "I used to go listen at that B.B. Daddy, man, before I really got into things." See, B.B. was a outlaw drummer--he could play, really play, but he was afraid to play if you tell him to play.
CO: Right.
EK: He got a mental thing goin' on. Like if--normally, like if y'all just come and sit in with the band--oh, he play hi' behind off. But now, if you put him under pressure, tell 'im he in the studio, somethin' like that--bingo. He fall out. But that's who Zigaboo used to go listen. And B.B. is like a nobody, so to speak. He used to sing and play drums.
CO: Well, and he sings on that Watch Records release. You taught him all those songs. And he sounds so much like you with his phrasing--
EK: You know why?
CO: --and how he chooses his notes, that I heard that your wife actually thought that was you singing.
EK: --singin' one o' them songs, lemme tell ya. You know what--Dell Stewart, you know what he did? When people used to ask me to audition songs, I used to get him, 'cause I don't wanna get hoarse. So I used to get B.B.--Dell Stewart--to go audition them songs for this. He know every song, if I have fifty songs in the book he knew every one of 'em by the letter. And he sing 'em to the people, and I just sit back there.
CO: Where is he today?
EK: Uh? Dead.
CO: He's dead?
EK: Died year before last. Yeah.
CO: Well, I guess we won't be having him on the show next week, huh?
EK: Yeah. No, him and King Floyd and all them was buddy-buddies. Yeah.
CO: And you know--we know King Floyd.
EK: Woh, yeah. Yeah.
CO: We better not talk about that on the air.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CO: But do let me ask you some questions, now. Dell Stewart leads into an interesting thing...."Mr. Credit Man", did Dell Stewart cut that?
EK: Yeah. "Let My Lover Go."
EK: Now, some of my favorite songs, that you've written, you've never performed.
EK: Mmm-hm.
CO: Now, one of my very favorite is "Teasin' You".
EK: Yeah, I did that on Willie T.
CO: --Willie T. And, I'd like you to tell the folks who you wrote that song about, or who's in the middle of it.
EK: Really--really, I wrote that song thinkin' about Huey Piano Smith. 'Cause he used to get all--he's so naive about chicks--and the chicks would put him on, like they play 'im, like they gonna get it on wid 'im, and he'd be left there sittin' at the bar. And that's why, in the last part of "Teasin' You", you got say, "they call you the olive man, they call you Doc, there's no more in stock," 'cause Huey nickname was Doc.
CO: Doc, that's right.
EK: Yeah, we call 'im Doc, you know. Doctor o' the piano. Yeah, Doc. And, "there's no more like you in stock." Yeah.
CO: And for those people that don't know the lyrics to "Teasin' You", it's (sings), "Don't you know that my baby loves me..."--
EK: Yeah.
CO: She's not goin' home with you, she's just askin' you to buy some drinks.
EK: Yeah. Right. That's all. That's the whole thing of it. And Huey used to get caught up into that...
CO: Now, most people assume Huey is dead and gone.
EK: No, no. Uh-uh.
CO: That's right. Where is Huey at?
EK: Huey's in Baton Rouge. Louisiana.
CO: And, how come we don't see him on these festivals?
EK: Well, because--he could, they want 'im on a lot o' festivals, but his wife he got now won't let 'im, 'cause he is Jehovah Witness. Now, she let 'im out one time some years ago to come play at Tipitina's. But Doc--Doc got on the gig and, he say, "Earl--go up to the bar and get me a vodka and orange," he say, "'cause see, my wife she been bringin' me orange juice up here all night. She ain't gonna know da difference." You know? (snicker)
CO: So, Huey's a Jehovah's Witness about like you and me are skinny.
EK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
CO: In our souls we perhaps are, but not in our--
EK: But Doc--man, look--Huey, Huey had--a lotta people don't know this, but in New Orleans, all the recordin' sessions, when they had a pia--when Huey Smith used to walk in the place, whoever the piano player was, they was fired, or turned loose politely. Huey got the gig, all--all the session you could go back on--you know, Lloyd Price, all that kind of stuff. You know, Huey was just a phenomenal piano pl'. Not--you can't judge Huey by the stuff he playin' for hisself. When he got into his own mold that was a little sticky thing that he was doin' for him. But when he was playin' behind other folks, like me and other people, you hear a different kind o' piano style playin' wi' Huey. It wasn't that--it wasn't that--that humdrum thing he played behind him with the clowns and stuff.
CO: Right.
EK: That was his thing that he--he picked that out--that was supposedly his thing, and like. You know? But early in the game, when he was playin', man, Huey was a monster, man. You know?
CO: As I recall, did Huey play piano on "Those Lonely Lonely Nights"?
EK: Yeah.
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah. That was the first thing. And he gave a--
CO: And, uh, you and I have talked about this, and I'd like to apologize because that is not the best take that was released.
EK: Oh, no! No, indeed! Johnny--Johnny Vincent--all he wanna know, 'sif the vocal is okay. He could care less about the music. He would say--'cause, we played in there the guitar, I tuned up with the piano, the guitar is partially outa tune, the piano is outa tune to begin wit'--Johnny cared nothin' 'bout none o' that. All he wanna know, if the vocal is intact. And bingo--he go from there.
CO: And so that was one of your first major hits, and how come it didn't go big? It was racin' up the charts. What happened?
EK: It went big as it could get. Uh, Johnny Vincent messed up with that. He draggin' his foot. See, see--
CO: Yeah, but then somebody else come along with another version, right?
EK: We--I'm tellin' ya now--no, the same version.
CO: Well, yeah.
EK: Johnny Guitar Watson.
CO: Pretty much note for note, but in tune, wasn't it?
EK: They spotted that out on the west coast, where Johnny was draggin' his foot and couldn't cover the west coast. That's what happened.
CO: Yeah, he couldn't bring the records out there.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. He--after he really caught on what was goin' on, he start catchin' a plane, bringin' the records, 'cause the bootlegger was dealin' wid 'im too. At the time, you know. And, uh, he was just one o' them kind o' people that drag his feet wid everything, procrastinate on doin' this, that, and such an' such. That was his thing. He could have a gold mine in his hand, and he would lose it. Because of procrastination. You know? And, uh, it's sad to say that, man. But I knew Johnny when he had a golden ear. Shou' gi' de devil hi' due, he had a golden ear. He could hear a hit in a haystack. You talkin' 'bout a needle in a haysta', he cou' hear a hit in a haystack. But he won't act on that! He could know it's a hit!
CO: Takes cash money.
EK: Yeah. He had the money. He won't act on it. He won't act on it.
CO: Yeah, but he wanted somebody else's money behind it.
EK: Yeah. You know, Johnny--
CO: That's how rich people work. They don't spend their money, they spend somebody else's money.
EK: Yeah, they use that OPM. They call it OPM--other people's money.
CO: That's right. Other people's money.
EK: Yeah. I know. But the thing is--uh, him and uh--I met two dudes in my life, him and Bobby Robertson, both of 'em swindlers. Mostly see 'im with Lee Dorsey.
CO: But good-natured swindlers--yeah.
EK: But, I'm sayin', Fire Records--Fury.
CO: Fire and Fury(?), yeah, that's right.
EK: Bobby could hear. There's nobody he ever recorded in his life, but the first record he put out on 'em was a hit. Nobody. He might not come back no more, but the first record he put out on 'em was a hit. And that's the same way with Johnny Vincent. He had a golden ear. He could hear stuff, but under that golden ear there was the devil. You know? But-- I mean, actually--if people like him and Bobby woulda played the game right, they'da been billionaires.
CO: Yeah, 'cause they knew what was good.
EK: They--yeah, they--they had all the things to work with, you know? But they didn' wanna play de game right, the way it's supposed to go. Yeah.
CO: Well--now you've also--most people don't realize--that you've got a little funny jig in your career. You took a whole lot of folks--you and Joe Jones, Wardell, Johnny Adams--you made a trip up north--
EK: Smokey.
CO: --to Michigan, and recorded for a very famous label here in town.
EK: Motown.
CO: Motown! Now what on earth caused none of your Motown recordings to come out until recently?
EK: Well, it's simple dealin' with that. They got threatened with a lawsuit if they didn't give one guy who wa' producin' the stuff, Joe Jones, X amount o' dollars--they'd better not put any o' that stuff out on the market. So, rather than to go through any kind o' dilemma with litigation, they say it ain't worth it. Just leave it hang. That's where it at wi' that. Yeah.
CO: But of course, then Berry Gordy found, found his own folks, but you were there early, before he was making hit records. I mean, he still had some hits out, don't get me wrong, but--
EK: Yeah.
CO: --uh, all of a sudden when Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder and everybody else comes along, I guess he figures, well if there's a lawsuit here then, let's--let's work on the guys who're makin' money and I got their contract...
EK: Yeah.
CO: But, please--tell the folks--this is my favorite story, Earl--Earl, did you ever get, uh, any money from Berry Gordy? Did you ever get an advance?
EK: Oh, yeah. I'm prob'ly th' only one got a advance from Berry Gordy.
CO: I think so.
EK: Yeah. Back then. And, uh--they tol' me when I come up there, "We don't give out no advances." And I said, "Well, I could un'erstand whatcher sayin'--but I ain't signin' no contracts unless I get a advance." "You mean to tell me you didn' sign them contracts when you walk in th' door?" I said, "No. I didn' sign no contracts." Then--so the guy talked to me was the vice-president--say, "Well Earl, we gonna straighten this out." You know. Mickey Stevens(?). That wa' Berry--Berry Gordy's right hand man. So, he straightened me out. He gave me what I wanted, the advance and everything, you know.
CO: Yeah, but as I recall, now, the story that I've heard, I've heard from your lips, I was hopin' you might relate to the folks, is that you were all sittin' there and you had your contracts in front of you--and when somebody wasn't lookin' you switched your contract with somebody else and signed that one!
EK: Oh, that was another deal there.
CO: Oh, oh, oh...
EK: Yeah, that was another deal up there, yeah. That wasn't--that was a managerial thing goin' on.
CO: Oh, all right.
EK: Yeah.
CO: I just remember hearin' this, uh--the old switcheroo about Mr. King.
EK: And uh, me'n--yeah--they went t' the bathroom, I let 'im sign mine, I signed his. That was simple as that. Yeah. But--no--ah, it was interestin' to me because, uh, bein' at Motown, now, that's a blessin' in disguise. There ain't no company on Planet Earth--not then, and not in the future--have the systematic thing that they had at Motown. It's unbelievable, it's a well kept secret, but if you inside, you know what's goin' on--and if you're a singer you don't know what's goin' on, 'cause they don't respect singers. Like, they treated singers up there like cattle then. Trust me. They treat singers--if you don't write--if you don't write no song, fo'git it. Fo'git it. That's it. Bottom line. But--the well kept secret up there--everybody is, like if Curtis here producin' somethin', there's nothin' to stop another producer--see he got a problem wi' somethin'--he gonna come help him--with no problem. No, nothin'. He gonna ha' 'self a commune. Man, that thing is unreal. It's unreal what they--and I tol' one o' them guys up there, I said, "Y'all play a cheatin' game. Y'all cheatin' on the marketplace. I know what cher doin'." And, like, ah, I'll give you a good example--say, like, if there is somethin' on the market that's really groovin' or whatever, they'll come up there to some songwriters--they got rooms and rooms and rooms with nothin' but writers in 'em--and they say, "Hey"--the guy'll play somethin' on the piano--"Y'hear this groove here? Play it." The guy'll sit there and play that groove. "Write somethin' to dis." He go to the next room, tell the next guy the same thing--an' the next guy the same thing. Everybody writin' on the same premise. Whoever come out wi' that--whatever come out, they wanna see how many different song they can come out on them same medium--that groove.
CO: And take the best one.
EK: Yeah. OK, give you a good example. Hit song--Aretha Franklin was hot. So, Motown wanted to put out somethin', they put out somethin' on Gladys Knight. Alright? They put out a thing called "I Heard It Through The Grapevine." But guess what? Marvin Gaye had cut that four years before, it was layin' up in the can. His version don't sound nuttin' like her. So what they do, they take arrangers, and have them arrangers up there arrange the same song, three or four different arrangers. Only time they got--hell all broke loose when Wardell got up there. They got three arrangers sittin' up in a pit--in a pool. When Wardell come up there, Wardell was out, he was writin' five arrangements to every one they was--they was writin' up there--in a night. So they had this guy--guy told Wardell, he say, "Oh, man--I heard you arrange." Wardell say, "Yeah, I do a little bit o' arranging." He say, "Here, look. I got a tape I want you to listen to." And Wardell took the tape--but, see, Wardell' room was right next to mine--I could hear him at night, three o'clock, at four o'clock in the mornin'--wi' his foot pattin' on the floor. I know he got them headsets on, listenin'. So, next day we go down by this coffeeshop and that guy was in there. He asked Wardell, he say, "Hey, man, um--did you listen at my tape?" Wardell say, "yeah, I listened at it." He say, "When you think you'll get around to writin' a arrangement on it?" Wardell say, "Yeah, I got it now, you want it?" That guy say, "You do what? I just give you that yesterday!" He say, Wardell say, "Yeah, I got it, in case you wanted it, you know." That dude ran down to Motown and look up on that big blackboard they got in there, and saw where dey had an openin' for de cut, that day? He got up musicians and stuff, man, and went in there and (made that new record?). Then he put the word out, he say, "Man, y'all ain't got to deal with them three cats up there, they got a cat here from New Orlean', man, who'll write them under the ground, bro'." That's why everybody came to Wardell. Wardell came back to New Orlean', he say, "I ain't teachin' school no more. This is it. I done did too many arrangements up there, man. I know where it's at now." That's wha--
CO: Now, one of my favorite Wardell stories is, there was a group that come into town, and their trailer tipped over, as I recall the story. And the charts got wet. And they needed a copyist.
EK: Oh, oh, a copyist! Oh, man! That's awesome. Look--they wanted, uh--they call the union hall, that's how they do that. They wanted a copyist, see, a big band, they got 25 pieces. They want the music. The bus turned over, the music got wet, and everything, all smeared and stuff--and they wanted some music copied. So, quite nat'ly they called the union hall, and uh, see if they could get five or six--maybe ten--copyists to come over there and copy. So they sent Wardell. When Wardell got up to the hotel...the guy say, "Where the rest of the guys?" Wardell say, "I don't know 'bout no rest. They just sent me." You know? So--they sent Wardell up there, and, uh, he said, "Oh, man! This is disgusting." He said, "Well, look, man. Copy as much as you can. This is the minimum(?) of what we want." They put the stuff out, what they wanted. When they come back from lunch, Wardell wa' layin' on the bed lookin' at TV wid his hand' behind his head, bro'. The dude say, "Hey, man! Keep writin', man, don't stop!" He say, "Look! Write as much as you can. We need this tonight, man!" Wardell say, "What you lookin' for, you lookin' for them charts you hired? Here it is right here, bro'." He had copied that whole book! That whole book he done copied! He say--'cause he write fast, man--"Look." And Wardell write fast when he was dippin' wid ink--wi' that ol' india ink? He used to dip that pen--that quill--in there, and write. He don't write with no pencil when he writin' arrangements, 'cause he knew he ain't gonna make no mistake. He write straight out, bro'. That cat say, "Man, you can't lay down in the bed, you got to write! Keep writin' till you pass out, man!" Wardell say, "If you lookin' for that stuff y'all got, there it is right there."
CO: It's all done.
EK: Yeah, it was done. That whole book.
CO: And as I recall, didn't he say to the guy, he says, "I hope you don't mind but I made a few changes--some, some corrections"? 'Cause not only was he writin' it fast, but he was fixin' it while he was fast!
EK: Yeah. Yeah. "This little trumpet part you had there ain't too right right there." Yeah.
CO: "I made some modifications for ya."
EK: Yeah.
CO: "The gig oughta go better tonight."
EK: Wardell, man, it's unreal. I ain't never seen--nor you. He write faster writin' music than I do with a letter. And if you're lookin' at Wordell, say, "Man, this is ridiculous."
CO: Well, I think knowing him--
EK: And he got a problem! He's scared o' dem--he's--he's afraid of--he's afraid o' them other arrangers. And Joe Jones told 'im one night, said, "Man, is you crazy? If I could write like you I wouldn't--man, these suckers up here, man, I'd get a shotgun and run them outa here, bro'! Man!" Wardell just like that. He just nice--
CO: He's a meek mild-mannered...
EK: --Mild, mild-mannered person. You know? But no, he got the technique, man. I asked him how he developed that speed, you know what he told me? Said when he was in the service, an' he had nothin' to do--he used to do with--deal with the band, normally--and, he say when he had nothin' to do, he'd just copy stuff. That's how he developed that speed, see, just copyin'.
CO: Earl, no interview would be complete without you tellin' about some of the wild and crazy times that you spent bein' somebody other than yourself at shows. Now, as I recall--
EK: Shit.
CO: --Guitar Slim--
EK: Man, Gui--Guitar Slim!
CO: --used to not make all of his shows.
EK: Well, he had a problem 'cause he got--he got sick. He got in a accident. And, uh--
CO: Oh, wait a minute, tell the people about the accident.
EK: Well, he got drunk and ran into a parked bulldozer. And, uh, he couldn't--he had dates lined up on him a mile long. He couldn't make none o' them dates because he's in the hospital. Hospitalized. So his manager, Jose Hill(?), knew that I knew all of Slim's songs and stuff, and he said, uh, he tol' my manager, he said, "Look. I need to borrow Earl to go on a tour, to finish up some dates for Slim." Frank say, "Yeah, he can cut it." Y'know? "But, I don't know how y'all gonna pull that off out there." Say, "Them people where we goin' ain't never saw Guitar Slim." So that was the clinch. That was the clinch right there. But, then I was with Slim' band, his band, see? Slim used his band to record with him. So, everything was in the pocket, far as the band. And, uh, I went and played--matter of fact, I fooled Ray Charles. Ray Charles didn't know that wasn't Slim, on there--onstage. I fooled him. I had him fooled awhile, bro'.
CO: And he actually recorded with Slim--
EK: Yeah, he opened the show--
CO: --on some of his most famous--
EK: See, Slim--Ray Charl' opened the show for Guitar Slim. That was on tour. That's why they was workin' there.
CO: Well--now, I could be wrong, but didn't Ray Charles one time impersonate Charles Brown? On the same deal?
EK: No, no, he was--he was in the place of Charles Brown.
CO: Oh, okay.
EK: See, Charl' Brown was 'posed to be on that same show wi' Guitar Slim.
CO: Right.
EK: But Charl' Brown didn't show up 'cause, um, somebody wanted to give him some money to play da races--and, uh, advance 'im some money. But, I was there in Slim' place. Ray Charl' wa' just fillin' in for Charles Brown. Charl' Brown didn't show up. Yeah.
CO: I see. Because Ray obviously stole a lot from Charles Brown.
EK: No, them people--yeah, them people-- oh! That's his idol, man! That's his idol--
CO: Yeah. Nat Cole and Charles Brown.
EK: Man, yeah, Charl' Brown, that's his idol, man!
CO: Now, what happened when you came back into town after you played all these dates pretendin' that you were Guitar Slim? You get back in town. Who was the first person you saw?
EK: Slim. In a--
CO: What was he doin'?
EK: In a nightgown, wid a 'coustic guitar on his back, comin' out' de hospital wid one o' dem women' cases they have makeup in. And he walk up--and I walk dead into Slim. "Earl! Boy! I heard you been out there posin' as me! I'm'a kill you! I'm'a kill you, man!" he say. I say, "What you gonna kill me for? I saved your life." He say, "If you did anything wrong out there, it gonna be on my name. Now, how much money did they pay you?" I say, "Twenty-five dollar." He say, "What? Twenty-five dollar?" He say, "What kind o' crowd there?" I said, "Unbelievable." I said, "Percentage crowd. The money was over, whatever. I don't know what you supposed to get." I say, "The band wa' tryin' to make me jack 'em up. The band kept tellin' me, say, 'Earl. Jack 'em up for some money.' I didn't know. That was my first time bein' out on any kind of road deal. I don't know nothin' bout none o' that." But, Slim say, "They didn' give you no money, huh? Twenty fi' dollar?" He got on the phone. Put that case down in his gown and called Thiboudeau(?), Jose Hill(?). He say, "Earl told me how much money y'all was makin' out there. Y'all didn't pay Earl, y'all gonna pay me." That's what Slim said.
CO: That's right.
EK: "Y'all gonna pay me." And that's what they had to do. Slim had 'em jacked up, man. Because, it was no more than right, you know. I realized he was sick, but--I filled in them dates because me'n him were friends.
CO: That's right.
EK: You know? I didn' care about--it wasn't 'bout the money with me, I--that wasn't a big deal.
CO: No, you were helping a friend.
EK: Yeah, that wasn't a big deal. That wasn't a big deal.
CO: Now, a lot of people don't realize, too, that Slim had a very specialized setup.
EK: Mm-hm.
CO: Now, these days, we all have a guitar and an amp.
EK: Yeah.
CO: What was it that made Slim's setup special?
EK: ...In them days they had no amps like we got nowadays. Slim had somebody make him a rig with some big ol' column speakers. That was unheard of back then. And column speakers that you could hear, and he never used a amplifier. He used a P.A. system. And drive that through them column speakers, man. And then, he used to take a knife and cut them speakers with slits in 'em, so they'd get distortion. And rattle. And stuff. Slim was--Slim was a maniac, bro'. Trust me, I love 'im to death but he was a maniac. (?Boy that took--the stuff.) "Now see--Earl--don't you ever try this, boy, 'cause you look like a darn fool if you try dis." That's what he would say. Some shit like that.
CO: And now Slim was also known for some of his--I mean, you've been called colorful--you've been called a beautiful dresser--and the people have remarked about your hair--but I have to admit--tell the folks why that you pale in comparison to the master.
EK: Huh?
CO: What did he used to do? What did--
EK: You talkin' 'bout Slim?
CO: Yeah.
EK: Man--see, today you can go in the store and buy any color shoe you wanna buy. Back in them days they had one--or two--colors you could buy--black and brown and white. Slim used to go buy him a pair o' white, o' white shoes; and if he's wearin' a purple suit, or red suit, he'd take them shoes and go to the hardware an' get some paint. He want some purple paint, he get that. And paint them shoes and put 'em out on that shed to dry in the sun. You know, come out there with that. Ain't no color--any color suit that Slim would have, he had people make up stuff. He go to a material place, then he go to the tailor. Funniest thing with Slim, Slim had a Cadillac he wanted--it was blue--and he wanted it painted red. And the guy painted the car. Slim went back there to get the car. The guy say, "It got to dry a little bit more, 'bout two more hours. We have to bake it." Slim say, "I want my car and I want it now." He had on a white suit.
CU: Uh-oh.
EK: And that red car, you can imagine his hand--arm--hangin' out that car, drivin' that car, and that red paint done got all over the sleeve of that white suit, bro'. He wanted that car. "I want my car."
CO: And Slim actually--used to also--at least, he'd dye his hair or paint his hair--
EK: Oh yeah...he'd dye his hair any color, man. That suit, he got a blue suit, he'd dye his hair blue, any o' that stuff. Slim was one of a kind. One of a kind, man. That's why Albert Collins say, "Earl--I moved into New Orleans for 'bout six, eight weeks--n' stay up over--" and I forgot they had rooms over Sam's (?) the sandwich place. You see, 'cause that was right next t'de Tijuana(?). Turn 'round the corner you had the Tijuana(?). He say,"--just to see Guitar Slim, bro'." He say, "Earl--" when I first met Albert he say, "Animal Guitar Slim, man, that's some weird stuff there, bro'...that man...Satan was some'in else, bro'! No, bro'! Uh-uh." See, man, he had a valet wid'im, and uh--well, he had a couple but the last one he had was Jimmy Cole(?). Jimmy Cole(?) used to be with Slim so much that he start' lookin' like Slim. I told him I say, "Jimmy"--Jimmy, Jimmy was a real light-complexioned dude. And I told him, I say, "You know, Jimmy," I say, "You done been with Slim so much you done start lookin' like 'im." "Cause whatever Slim do, he hang with Slim. That was his driver, chauffeur and valet. And so, one night Slim was dead and gone, and I was playin' at a club called the Alamis(?) down in Mississippi in--what the name o' that town in Mississippi?--anyway, man, I walk in th'--on th' side o' th' buildin' and here I am out there tryin' to--the place was so crowded to get in there, I'm out there tryin' to take a leak--and I'm standin' at th' back like this place here, and I saw a shadda--a shadda on th' ground, and I'm sayin' to myself, "That look like Slim behind me"--that's what I'm sayin'--and that was Jimmy Cole(?). Hey look, that sucker was behind me, and he say, "Earl--you oughta be shamed of yourself, boy!" I look. Jimmy Cole(?)...If you catch Slim on th' highway you see two drunks. Jimmy got his feet on top o' the dashboard, Slim in th' back on de seat snorin', bro'. I passed 'em one Mardi Gras day comin' back to New Orleans, and I pulled over there, see if they was all right, and I told them guys in the car, say, "They all right, they just snorin'." You know, I wanted t'see if they were dead or alive, you know...
CO: Now, one of our close friends who died--what now, oh, it's been a while, it's been almost nine years--he was Slim's opening act. He was a--
EK: Who, Thunderbird?
CO: That's right. How'd he get that name?
EK: Yeah.
CO: How'd James Davis become Thunderbird Davis?
EK: James, James--he'd drink plenty o' Thunderbird wine, that's how he got that name! Thunderbird! But, uh--he was a--he was into Guitar Slim.
CO: Well, what T-bird told me, he was opening up for Guitar Slim, and Slim said, "I'm gonna drink this, and you drink that." And they drank so much that he had alcohol poisoning. They took him to the emergency room and one of the doctors--and of course, everybody who was in the hotel room drinkin' came down with, just to see the dead guy, you know--and, uh, one of the doctors said, "So where is that Thunderbird patient?" So after that, he was Thunderbird Davis.
EK: Man, knowin' T-bird, man--knowin' T-bird, man--but he, uh, he really did used to open up for Slim and the band, you know, and uh--
CO: Great singer.
EK: Yeah. Man. T-bird, man. I miss old T-bird. I remember when, in later days, what you talkin' about, when I played a gig wi' T-bird, man, he say, "Earl." You know, he(we?) had that lawsuit.
CO: Yeah.
EK: He never got to spend any o' th' money. But, he said, "Earl. All I want is a white suit. I been wantin' a white suit all my life. And a Cadillac. A white Cadillac." That's wha' he tol' me. I say, "You get that from Slim, bro'."
CO: And I can attest--we were playin' with him the night he died--
EK: I know.
CO: --and you know what he was wearin'. A white suit.
EK: You gotta be kiddin'.
CO: Yeah. Yeah, we--
EK: Woh.
CO: --and he, he never did get his teeth fixed, he had all his teeth pulled out. He was s'posed to get brand new teeth.
EK: He say he wa'--he say he wa' gonna get 'em replaced. Yeah.
CO: And Hammond(?) wouldn't give 'im his teeth. Hammond from Black Top Records.
EK: Yeah.
CO: So, at that point, all he wanted was a white suit and new teeth!
EK: Yeah, man, Bird, man--he was a, a good artist, man. You know?
CO: Now--do you know the story about how Hammond went out to his place with Lloyd Lambert?
EK: Yeah.
CO: Tell the folks.
EK: I heard about it. 'Cause, T-bird saw some people comin' out by his house--and he didn't know whether he had did some'in' or not--and he thought maybe it mighta been the FBI or some'in'. All he could see is some white faces--
CO: White men in suits!
EK: Uh?
CO: White men in suits! Then he got worried.
EK: Yeah, white men in suits. And, look, he got scared. But after, he said, he saw Lloyd--he tol' me, after he saw Lloyd wid 'em, he say, "Well I don't guess Lloyd done set me up. I know Lloyd."
CO: And Lloyd used to be the bass player for Guitar Slim.
EK: Yeah. When he saw Lloyd, he kinda felt comfortable, you know? That's how Hammond and them got into T-bird, man. Hammond would trace somebody down to th' end o' the earth. Like we, you and I, were talkin' 'bout Spencer Wiggin(?)?
CO: That's right.
EK: If I mention that name there, he on 'im now til the face o' th' earth. He will hunt 'im down. To see, are you hooked up, and do you wanna record? And that's the way he did with T-bird. No, but I ain't saw--I ain't saw T-bird in years, man--and he went out there and found him.
CO: Was he in, like...Gray(?), Louisiana, or one o' them...?
EK: Gray(?). Gray(?). Yeah.
CO: Yeah, Bird, he was a hoot. Well, I tell ya, Earl--here's my belief--I love your shows, I love your music, but if we could just sell tickets to when you and me get a chance to chat, we'd both be rich.
EK: Yeah! Yeah, 'cause see--
CO: I'm not even gonna ask you about them off-color Little Richard stories.
EK: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause see--you remember stuff that I done forgot, uh, temporar'ly--and you'll say this thing an' it trigger my mind to think about what's--you know--what's what with whatever.
CO: We'd like to find out what you know about Mr. Albert Collins. When was the first time you met Albert? The first thing that pops into your head about Albert Collins.
EK: No, I met Albert Collins accidental, wid, uh, Ronnie Earl.
CO: Oh, so it was late? You didn't know 'im when he was still in Houston?
EK: Uh?
CO: You didn't know 'im when he was in Houston, you didn't know 'im when he was in California, you musta been back--
EK: Uh-uh, no, I met Album--Albert--in uh, maybe uh, durin' the--whatcha call it?--the 80's and up in there. That's when I met Albert, uh, personally, you know. I knew Albert, you know, 'bout what he was doin', you know, but I mean personally meetin' him one on one. Then we played some gigs together, you know, some, uh, things, the' I got to really get into him. You know, uh, he and I and Ronnie Earl and all us played up in a bunch of gigs together.
CO: You didn't happen to play dominos with Albert, did you?
EK: Nhuh?
CO: You didn't happen to play dominos with Albert, did you?
EK: Domino's, where that's at?
CO: No, I'm talkin' 'bout the game.
EK: Oh, no. Uh-uh.
CO: Okay. So--you still have all your money, then. 'Cause you know that that man was a domino-playin' ----. I learned how to play dominos from Albert Collins, and it cost me quite a bit of money, I might add.
EK: That like Bobby Marchand(?) wa' playin' tonk(?).
CO: Yeah. I(?) played tonk(?) with Bobby.
EK: I used to tell them guys--I used to tell 'em, I say, "Don't play wid 'im." You know? I say, "He gonna take your money." Yeah, and Bobby Marchand(?) would do dat.
CO: You have any remembrances of Luther Allison?
EK: Luther Allison and I were comin' from one gig, it mighta been Wolftrap's, and uh, he had this box wid him--some kind o' heart thing. He tol' me he was waitin' on a heart 'plant. Transplant. And, uh, it wasn't but some months after dat, Luther--Luther had passed away.
CO: It was very quick.
EK: Yeah.
CO: Now, our old drummer used to be Luther's drummer--you remember Rob?
EK: Who?
CO: Rob. Stupid--
EK: Oh, yeah, Rob!
CO: That's how I met Rob, was with Luther.
EK: Yeah, yeah.
CO: He played with him a long time. Any, uh, any interesting stories about Junior Wells? Junior is usually a little crazy.
EK: I saw Junior Wells over there where we was. The first time I saw Junior Wells, in uh, Norway. The first time I had went over there, played wid a Norwegian band. Junior Wells wa' down there actin' a fool, and uh, our old boy was there, he was on crutches, uh--Buddy , Buddy Guy just called his name last night. Uh--
CO: Yeah.
EK: What his name? He used to be Guitar Junior, changed his name.
CO: Oh, Lonnie Brooks.
EK: Lonnie Brooks. He came up there, he was on crutches, man, and I asked him, I said, "Man, what's wrong?" He say he had a blood clot burst in his leg and, uh, that's why he had the crutches. So Junior Wells was in there, every mornin' at breakfast I would see Junior Wells and--and uh, Lonnie Brooks, we all be there in breakfast--and Junior Wells was out there. Out there.
CO: He was a lot of fun, but--
EK: Uh?
CO: But see, you guys were Louisiana boys, right? Now, Lonnie--
EK: But that's my first time meetin' Junior Wells.
CO: Lonnie Lee Baker, he grew up in Louisiana.
EK: I may--I've been knowin' Lonnie Brooks--but that's the first time I met Junior Wells, was over dere--in Norway. That's my first time runnin' int' 'im. But, you know, th'--an' I heard the stories on Junior Wells, 'cause Clifford Antone used t' tell me a lot o' stories. You know. I mean, you know. So--
CO: Well--I shouldn't ask this question, but--where is Clifford right now?
EK: He's still in Austin.
CO: Yeah, but where in Austin?
EK: Walkin' around the streets.
CO: That's not what I hear.
EK: What?
CO: I heard he's got a very small room.
EK: No, he ain't in there yet.
CO: Oh. Alright.
EK: ...I talked to your friend, Cass(?). I talked to Cass(?).
CO: I'm very--I'm very glad. We were just teasin' about that.
EK: No, I talked to Cass(?) after I hung up wit' you. I tol' ya, I say, "I'm'a get Cass, uh, I got to call Cass and, uh, find out what's goin' out there on th' other end." I talked to Cass and he tol' me what's goin' on. You know, everything, he just struttin' around the street, ain't nothin' goin' on now.
CO: And, uh, you don't have anything to say about Clifford's sister, do you?
EK: Susan? Nnnnnooo.
CO: I think you better take the fifth on that, Mr. King.
EK: Well--I ain't got no gig. They didn' gi' me no gig. I wanna get a gig when Clifford is in the swing.
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah, when Clifford is in the swing, I'll get the gig.
CO: Well? Whattya think? Got any more talk to do? I think it's time for us to enjoy people. Whattya think? This is a great fest and I'm very happy to hear. We're gonna see Robert, we're gonna see our friends, we're gonna get some--
EK: Oh, yeah, Rob--Rob--Robert comin' on, Robert Ward, uh?
CO: Robert and Roberta're gonna be here, right.
EK: Uh? Yeah, yeah, I wanted to see them...
CU: OK. This is the Kalamazoo Blues Festival, it is July 15th, the year 2000, and we're speaking with Mr. Earl King, interview conducted by--
CO: Curt Obeda, leader of the Butanes...
CU: Thank you, gentlemen!
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Transcription: Carolle Uithoven
Transcription Notes
Transcription consultant: Scott Barretta
Interview conducted by Curtis Obeda, guitarist/bandleader of the Butanes, for the Down Home Music Archives. Produced by Carolle Uithoven, DHMA Project Director. Interview coordinated by Butanes bassist John Lindberg. Present at interview: Felix Ybarra, West Michigan Blues Society.
Interview location: Hospitality tent at the 2000 Kalamazoo (Michigan) Blues Festival.
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CU: Felix is just gonna listen in because he's doing quotes for an article, and he'll just pick out a few quotes to use in his article about the festival, if that's okay.
CO: I only have one question, now--Earl and I will sit and talk for two hours, so---
CU: I have a hundred and forty-seven minutes on this disc.
CO: Well, what are you actually looking for? I mean, you're gonna edit this, right, so, I mean, if there's some extraneous nonsense---alright.
CU: Yup. You go on as long as you want, because we may use it for several different shows, too......
CO: Alright, Earl, you ready? Here we go. I'm doing the interview now---I'm the interviewer.
EK: Okay, okay.
CO: So if I ask you what you think is a dumb question, you gotta answer it anyway, 'cause I might know the answer, but they wanna know the truth. Alright-- you ready?
EK: (cackle) Yeah.
CO: Alright. Earl--now, we've been playing together awhile--what do you think, is it about thirteen years since you met the Butanes?
EK: Yeah, about that.
CO: So, tell me, how did that come about?
EK: Well, from one gig in Minnesota, at the Blues Saloon. That's where it all started at.
CO: And do you remember what happened...did your agent say, uh, I have this band, or did he say, I have a gig, or how did you decide to work with us?
EK: No, he say he had heard a tape on the Butanes.
CO: Oh, so you had to give us thumbs up on that, huh, Mr. King?
EK: No, I didn't listen at it, he listened at it.
CO: Alright.
EK: Yeah. He say the group is a great group. And that's how that began.
CO: I appreciate that. And, shortly thereafter, you invited us to come down to Jazz Fest to play with you. Do you remember that first year we came down to Jazz Fest?
EK: That's right. Yeah, that was the big----the whole band.
CO: That's right, we had all ten pieces with us down there that night.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm tryin' to wonder if that was the time we got rained out.
CO: It was, Earl. Tell 'em about that rainstorm of the century we ran into.
EK: Huh?
CO: Tell 'em about that rainstorm we ran into.
EK: You talkin' about at the Jazz Fest?
CO: That's right.
EK: Oh man, that was ridiculous... but,I mean, there's nothin' we could do about it. I mean, we had a good time partying, but we couldn't play.
CO: Well, the thing I remember about that date is, I walked up to the news stand in the morning, and it said "Jazz Fest goes on rain or shine"--and you had left a message with me at the hotel saying "we're cancelled." And, I walked into the lobby of the hotel--and the most disappointed member of our band was Earl King. You really wanted to play that day.
EK: Yeah. That was---that'd been a great thing for 'em to hear the Butanes in full force. You know what I'm sayin'?
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah. I've heard it, but they didn't hear it. You know, that was the thing, you know, and that would have been a good thing. You know, say it like Martha Stewart---that would have been a good thing. You know?
CO: We've had fun in the last couple years.
EK: Yeah. Yeah.
CO: So now, Earl, I know you've been recording for a long time, Marty called 50 years you've been in the music industry. I think it's not quite that long---but, what was your first recording and what was it---who did you record for and under what name?
EK: Well, they said something on the tube about my first recording was with Specialty Records, that's not so. The first recording was with Savoy. I was a teenager. And they say you got to get your parents to sign. But I signed. Since it was done through the mail, I signed.
CO: Well, your father was dead.
EK: Huh?
CO: Your father was dead. He had passed.
EK: Yeah, my mother was alive, she right next door, but I signed the papers. 'Cause I could sign just like her anyway. 'Cause I used to cheat on---
CO: You had practice at that.
EK: Yeah, look, I had cheated---I had cheated in school when my report card come up. I signed the thing like my momma did it. I could sign her handwriting right now, real fast.
CO: And what was that first thing that you cut for Savoy? Remember the songs you cut?
EK: Yeah. "Have You Gone Crazy" was one and the flip side was "Beggin' At Your Mercy".
CO: Alright. And what name did they issue that under?
EK: That was under Earl Johnson.
CO: That's right, Earl Johnson.
EK: Yeah. The guy was the A&R man for that was Herman Lubinsky. Later years he started managin' Della Reese and all those big muck-mucks, then, you know.
CO: Now I recall that you have some recordings under the name Handsome Earl. Can you tell me about those?
EK: Yeah. 'Cause Ace Records---the people, the distributors--said, "You ain't got nobody but Earl King on that label?" And Johnny Vincent thought of a gimmick. He changed the label to Vin Records. He still kept Ace. Changed to Vin--put me under Handsome Earl on there, so the people'd think that's somebody different. That's what that was about.
CO: And, please tell the folks how you got your current stage name. You're no longer Handsome Earl, you're no longer Earl Johnson, how did you become Earl King?
EK: Well, I read some articles, but it's incorrect, like, uh, Art Rupe --see, when you send in records--
CO: Art Rupe was from Specialty Records, now.
EK: Yeah. That's what Johnny was workin' for--Johnny Vincent. But, when you send in a record, you don't put on there--you put the last name first--
CO: Right. Correct.
EK: Okay. So, uh, I read a article where they said, Art Rupe did that deliberately. That's not true. They put the name on there, "King"--which s'posed to be the last name--and then "Earl". And the pressing plant got it all confused, and they put "Earl King", 'cause they say that "King" supposed to be the last name, and, you know...
CO: That's right. So you were actually supposed to be "King Earl"--
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CO: "King Earl Johnson", but they ended up thinking that "King" was your last name, so you'd be called "Earl King".
EK: Yeah. Yeah. And so that's how that came. So they left it stay that way. Yeah.
CO: Now, as I recall, there was an interesting twist to that. When you were a teenager you got married very young--
EK: Correct.
CO: --and you wrote a very hit record about your relationship with your first wife, and she didn't realize that you were Earl King. Where did you run into her again? You remember in Chicago?
EK: Oh! In Chicago! Yeah, yeah.
CO: And what record did you write about your relationship with your first wife?
EK: Well, I'd have to attribute that to "Mama and Papa".
CO: "Mama and Papa" and "Trick Bag", right?
EK: Yeah. And "Trick Bag" with "Mama and Papa" is--
CO: That's a true story, isn't it?
EK: --a true story, yeah. It was fun back in them days, when I look back on 'em. It wasn't fun when it was happenin'... but, I could look back on those things and say, "We' hey---(sings) You better know what you're doin', honey child"--you know, and that's the thing. All that stuff was cut round the same time. You know? And--
CO: There was a theme running through there, wasn't there? Didn't your mother tell you not to marry that woman?
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it was about.
CO: And that's how you got the blues.
EK: Yeah. You got that right. You got that right.
CO: Now, I know that you've been involved with many other recording labels, and one of my favorite just got reissued on CD; and what label was that that Henry Hildebrand Jr. started out of the one-stop in New Orleans that you used to hang out at?
EK: Well, his daddy was the first one--uh, Joe Assunto owned the one-stop, and he and Henry Hildebrand, Sr. was good friends, and they formed the Watch label and they recorded Professor Longhair. Matter of fact, that's the label Professor Longhair come out on with "Big Chief". You know, and after Henry died his son took over the business--many years later, after Henry died, that his son really got--Henry Hildebrand had a distributorship. He was distributing records.
CO: That's right.
EK: And later he got the idea that he wanted to get into the commercial part of it, the record business. And, uh, after he passed away his son was runnin' the distributorship, he decided he wanted to pick up where his daddy left off. So that's why you hear the compilation that you hear out here now. That's because of Henry--Warren-- Hildebrand.
CO: Right.
EK: Yeah.
CO: Now this compilation has your name on the front but nothing credited to you as the performer. It's got--
EK: The only one they got--
CO: It's got a very large number of songs that you wrote--
EK: I know why they put my name on there, they were playin' politics.
CO: Right.
EK: See, I'm singin' on Professor Longhair's tune.
CO: But you are uncredited.
EK: Yeah. But on his first album that he put out on Mardi Gras records, he got me credited on that.
CO: I did not know that.
EK: Yup. He got me credited on there all the way through that. So, on this thing, he was usin' a little gimmick--he say, well I'll put Earl' name on there. And they gonna try to see will--but I'm singin' on Professor Longhair, 'cause Professor Longhair's on there.
CO: And as I recall, wasn't that--that was supposed to be what, what we call when you cut it, you're just gonna do a quick vocal, you're gonna just do a dub vocal, and you're gonna--Professor Longhair was supposed to come back and re-sing that later.
EK: And overdub it, 'cause he couldn't learn the words.
CO: And what did he do to his left hand during that recording session?
EK: He tied it behind his back.
CO: 'Cause he couldn't learn that left hand bass line.
EK: No. He couldn't learn that, and, uh, Curtis Mitchell, the bass player on "Big Chief", Curtis Mitchell--the guy on the one-stop say, "Look--Fess, don't worry 'bout the bass line, Curtis got the bass line." Curtis were playin' the line to a T.
CO: That's right.
EK: And Wardell Quezergue, the arranger, he didn't know how Curtis knew the lines already, because we had did that previously to do an instrumental on "Big Chief", many years before that. Yeah.
CO: And for many people, they might not understand, Wardell is one of the finest arrangers in the city of New Orleans.
EK: Yeah.
CO: He's very uncredited--worked with Allen Toussaint, worked with the Meters, the Neville Brothers, Dr. John--
EK: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah--you name it.
CO: --and he brought in--how big was that horn section on "Big Chief"?
EK: We did fifteen pieces ensemble on that. Yeah. It don't sound like it on the record because the quality of the studio wasn't pronounced where it could deliver what was done. But if you was in the studio and heard that when it was goin' on, it was unbelievable. Yeah. Professor Longhair' composition was unbelievable. You know and, uh, they had the Mardi Gras Indians and all that in there. They was in there givin' that spirit, you know, givin' the spirit of what was goin' on. But, ah, Fess--the greatest thing about Fess was, Fess was always a nonchalant person about things, and uh, when we rehearsaled the song in the beginning Fess assumed that that was gonna be four pieces on there, a rhythm section. So, I'm sittin' on the piano with him and he said, "Earl--who is all these musicians in here?" And I play it dumb. I said, "I don't know." And he say, "Oh, they're probably gonna record after we finish." Like that, he say, they probably gonna record 'dwe finish. So, when the thing came on and Fess went (sings) "deh deh de-de-de, deh deh deh--deh--deh" that was okay, and everything. He played the intro and when it got--in the part one, they got a horn slam in there, where they come in. Them guys was sittin' up there with the music and everything, and they hit that thing on that augmented chord--WOW! And Fess hit that piano and stopped and said, "Earl. Who told them to do that? They're not supposed to be playin' on this." I wanted to laugh so bad. I didn't want to laugh at him--hey--he'd had no idea them guys was on the session, that that what they supposed to do. Wardell had wrote that thing, that slam. When I was playin' originally on that, I got a diminished chord in there, I put in there, and Wardell wrote it just to the letter, just like it was--
CO: Right.
EK: --but anyway, so I said, "Cool down,Fess"--'cause he's very nonchalant about stuff, very naive about things; and you could easily trick Fess into anything you know, tell him--'cause he easygoin', very easygoin'--and, uh, them guys played and he looked at 'em and he say, like--he say, "Yeah, I'm gonna go along with this--" he say, "still-- but I don't like what's happenin'." 'Cause he couldn't understand that they were gonna have a big band. He thought they were gonna be four pieces on that, and that was it. 'Cause Fess is the kind of person, what he was like--you don't change nothin' on the set. "Oh, maybe we could change this or do that"--you can't do that with Fess. Once he practice somethin' it go that way. Ain't no other way. That's the way that go. No gettin' in the studio and change the go-round, say--oh, I think this is, uh-- we could improve this little thing here. No. You can't do that with Fess. And, I was happy that they used that kind of ensemble, with fifteen pieces. 'Cause I put it Wardell' head, and he put it in Chief' head, and he said--I said--"Wardell. You know I hear about fifteen pieces on this tune." He say, "Yeah, me too." He say, "But when I tell Chief about this, he gonna go up the wall about the money." You got to pay off all these people, man. And sure enough, Chief went up the wall--but, by Wardell tellin' it to him, he knew Wardell' credibility, he went along with it. But that was my idea, puttin' that on there. I pushed it off on Wardell.
CO: Right. Now, Professor Longhair is known as a seminal piano player in New Orleans...he's almost idolized and lionized by young people today. But, as you said, he practiced--and he did it the way he did it. But Professor Longhair didn't consider himself a musician, did he?
EK: Nope.
CO: What was his profession?
EK: Actually--Professor Longhair could have been a drummer. He really coulda been. 'Cause he had some unorthodox way of playin' with rhythm. Even when he wa' playin' piano he used to beat on the--play a solo, he'd beat on the upright piano at the bottom with his foot. He beat on, on the--matter of fact, "Big Chief" he showed Smokey what he wanted the drums to do.
CO: And Smokey is the drummer? What Smokey?
EK: Yeah. Smokey Johnson.
CO: Smokey Johnson. Who also played on--?
EK: Everything. "Trick Bag", you could name it. Everything. Smokey--Smokey Johnson, his song was "It Ain't My Fault".
CO: That's right. Tell 'em what happened to his song.
EK: Yeah. Oh, that's caught up in litigation now. Big time stuff. You know, 'cause, uh, Master P recorded it and Mariah Carey cut it and everything; and they got that tied up in litigation right now. It's really crazy. But Smokey was one of--
CO: What's old is new and what's new is old.
EK: Yeah. But, uh, Smokey--Smokey come along--see, what they--what was goin' on in New Orleans was everybody used to think that the people came to New Orleans--all the major companies--come there for the piano players. That's not so. That's a total myth. We had the great piano players there, but the major labels--Atlantic and all them people--they didn't come there for that. They came there for the drums. New Orleans have a history of turnin' out drummers, and--one after the other, one after the other--it's the drummin' thing. The first one they had 'round there were Earl Palmer. Before Earl Palmer left to go to the west coast, he predicted, he told us, said, "When I leave here, that guy gonna be in the studio." He was talkin' about a guy named Charles Williams. We call 'im Hungry. Okay? Bingo. Then after Hungry was Smokey. Then after Smokey was a guy come into bein' named, um, Mean Willie Green. No, I'm sorry, Zigaboo. It was Zigaboo. Zigaboo.
CO: I was gonna say put Zig in there because Mean Willie's still playin' on the road, as I recall, with the Neville Brothers.
EK: --the Neville Brothers, yeah. Zigaboo. And, quiet as it kept, Art Neville got Zigaboo first with the Meters. He always get the drummer 'cause he had John Boudreaux. But I didn't get no instance out of John Boudreaux because Allen Toussaint used to really could play. Because Allen had a colder thing. He liked to do it this way. You know? So he kept him playin' a straight four on the drums on everything. You listen at all of many records, it's straight four on the drums--chik, chik, chik--and that's it. He wanted the guitar players to play the same thing, them chinks, with the drummer. You know?
CO: But Zig didn't do that. He said, "Yes, Allen" and then played what he wanted, didn't he?
EK: Yeah. Yeah. But Zig cut out. Zig lef' 'em--they wouldn't use Zig no more because they were doin' Dr. John in Miami--Zig walk off the session. Yeah. Because of that reason, you know. "You all got to play my drums." You know: "I don't need no dictator." I don't need no dictator, yeah.
CO: "Don't tell me what to do." Right.
EK: So, those people and Allen didn't use Smokey too much. Because of that reason. And neither Hungry, as much as he loved Hungry. You know? 'Cause he couldn't tell--he say, "What do I tell Hungry to play? I can't tell him nuttin' to play." You couldn't. He's unbelievable, man. Hungry was a, a, a champion o' all drummers.
CO: And now there's another name I'd like to mention who I think is a great drummer. He's on one of your most recent recordings, and he has a reputation as being a great drummer who talks too much. Herman Ernest.
EK: Oh, Herman is a great drummer. But, see, he come from that pattern, he come from that pattern of Smokey Johnson and all them. See, he done listened at Zigaboo, Smokey, and all that. That's why I say it go on and on with them drummers who been list'nen'. Zigaboo tol' me somethin' that 'stonished me. That CD you talkin' about, with Dell Stewart on it, he's the drummer. Zigaboo tol' me, he say, "Earl"--we got a nickname for Dell Stewart, they call him B.B. Daddy--he say, "I used to go listen at that B.B. Daddy, man, before I really got into things." See, B.B. was a outlaw drummer--he could play, really play, but he was afraid to play if you tell him to play.
CO: Right.
EK: He got a mental thing goin' on. Like if--normally, like if y'all just come and sit in with the band--oh, he play hi' behind off. But now, if you put him under pressure, tell 'im he in the studio, somethin' like that--bingo. He fall out. But that's who Zigaboo used to go listen. And B.B. is like a nobody, so to speak. He used to sing and play drums.
CO: Well, and he sings on that Watch Records release. You taught him all those songs. And he sounds so much like you with his phrasing--
EK: You know why?
CO: --and how he chooses his notes, that I heard that your wife actually thought that was you singing.
EK: --singin' one o' them songs, lemme tell ya. You know what--Dell Stewart, you know what he did? When people used to ask me to audition songs, I used to get him, 'cause I don't wanna get hoarse. So I used to get B.B.--Dell Stewart--to go audition them songs for this. He know every song, if I have fifty songs in the book he knew every one of 'em by the letter. And he sing 'em to the people, and I just sit back there.
CO: Where is he today?
EK: Uh? Dead.
CO: He's dead?
EK: Died year before last. Yeah.
CO: Well, I guess we won't be having him on the show next week, huh?
EK: Yeah. No, him and King Floyd and all them was buddy-buddies. Yeah.
CO: And you know--we know King Floyd.
EK: Woh, yeah. Yeah.
CO: We better not talk about that on the air.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CO: But do let me ask you some questions, now. Dell Stewart leads into an interesting thing...."Mr. Credit Man", did Dell Stewart cut that?
EK: Yeah. "Let My Lover Go."
EK: Now, some of my favorite songs, that you've written, you've never performed.
EK: Mmm-hm.
CO: Now, one of my very favorite is "Teasin' You".
EK: Yeah, I did that on Willie T.
CO: --Willie T. And, I'd like you to tell the folks who you wrote that song about, or who's in the middle of it.
EK: Really--really, I wrote that song thinkin' about Huey Piano Smith. 'Cause he used to get all--he's so naive about chicks--and the chicks would put him on, like they play 'im, like they gonna get it on wid 'im, and he'd be left there sittin' at the bar. And that's why, in the last part of "Teasin' You", you got say, "they call you the olive man, they call you Doc, there's no more in stock," 'cause Huey nickname was Doc.
CO: Doc, that's right.
EK: Yeah, we call 'im Doc, you know. Doctor o' the piano. Yeah, Doc. And, "there's no more like you in stock." Yeah.
CO: And for those people that don't know the lyrics to "Teasin' You", it's (sings), "Don't you know that my baby loves me..."--
EK: Yeah.
CO: She's not goin' home with you, she's just askin' you to buy some drinks.
EK: Yeah. Right. That's all. That's the whole thing of it. And Huey used to get caught up into that...
CO: Now, most people assume Huey is dead and gone.
EK: No, no. Uh-uh.
CO: That's right. Where is Huey at?
EK: Huey's in Baton Rouge. Louisiana.
CO: And, how come we don't see him on these festivals?
EK: Well, because--he could, they want 'im on a lot o' festivals, but his wife he got now won't let 'im, 'cause he is Jehovah Witness. Now, she let 'im out one time some years ago to come play at Tipitina's. But Doc--Doc got on the gig and, he say, "Earl--go up to the bar and get me a vodka and orange," he say, "'cause see, my wife she been bringin' me orange juice up here all night. She ain't gonna know da difference." You know? (snicker)
CO: So, Huey's a Jehovah's Witness about like you and me are skinny.
EK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
CO: In our souls we perhaps are, but not in our--
EK: But Doc--man, look--Huey, Huey had--a lotta people don't know this, but in New Orleans, all the recordin' sessions, when they had a pia--when Huey Smith used to walk in the place, whoever the piano player was, they was fired, or turned loose politely. Huey got the gig, all--all the session you could go back on--you know, Lloyd Price, all that kind of stuff. You know, Huey was just a phenomenal piano pl'. Not--you can't judge Huey by the stuff he playin' for hisself. When he got into his own mold that was a little sticky thing that he was doin' for him. But when he was playin' behind other folks, like me and other people, you hear a different kind o' piano style playin' wi' Huey. It wasn't that--it wasn't that--that humdrum thing he played behind him with the clowns and stuff.
CO: Right.
EK: That was his thing that he--he picked that out--that was supposedly his thing, and like. You know? But early in the game, when he was playin', man, Huey was a monster, man. You know?
CO: As I recall, did Huey play piano on "Those Lonely Lonely Nights"?
EK: Yeah.
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah. That was the first thing. And he gave a--
CO: And, uh, you and I have talked about this, and I'd like to apologize because that is not the best take that was released.
EK: Oh, no! No, indeed! Johnny--Johnny Vincent--all he wanna know, 'sif the vocal is okay. He could care less about the music. He would say--'cause, we played in there the guitar, I tuned up with the piano, the guitar is partially outa tune, the piano is outa tune to begin wit'--Johnny cared nothin' 'bout none o' that. All he wanna know, if the vocal is intact. And bingo--he go from there.
CO: And so that was one of your first major hits, and how come it didn't go big? It was racin' up the charts. What happened?
EK: It went big as it could get. Uh, Johnny Vincent messed up with that. He draggin' his foot. See, see--
CO: Yeah, but then somebody else come along with another version, right?
EK: We--I'm tellin' ya now--no, the same version.
CO: Well, yeah.
EK: Johnny Guitar Watson.
CO: Pretty much note for note, but in tune, wasn't it?
EK: They spotted that out on the west coast, where Johnny was draggin' his foot and couldn't cover the west coast. That's what happened.
CO: Yeah, he couldn't bring the records out there.
EK: Yeah. Yeah. He--after he really caught on what was goin' on, he start catchin' a plane, bringin' the records, 'cause the bootlegger was dealin' wid 'im too. At the time, you know. And, uh, he was just one o' them kind o' people that drag his feet wid everything, procrastinate on doin' this, that, and such an' such. That was his thing. He could have a gold mine in his hand, and he would lose it. Because of procrastination. You know? And, uh, it's sad to say that, man. But I knew Johnny when he had a golden ear. Shou' gi' de devil hi' due, he had a golden ear. He could hear a hit in a haystack. You talkin' 'bout a needle in a haysta', he cou' hear a hit in a haystack. But he won't act on that! He could know it's a hit!
CO: Takes cash money.
EK: Yeah. He had the money. He won't act on it. He won't act on it.
CO: Yeah, but he wanted somebody else's money behind it.
EK: Yeah. You know, Johnny--
CO: That's how rich people work. They don't spend their money, they spend somebody else's money.
EK: Yeah, they use that OPM. They call it OPM--other people's money.
CO: That's right. Other people's money.
EK: Yeah. I know. But the thing is--uh, him and uh--I met two dudes in my life, him and Bobby Robertson, both of 'em swindlers. Mostly see 'im with Lee Dorsey.
CO: But good-natured swindlers--yeah.
EK: But, I'm sayin', Fire Records--Fury.
CO: Fire and Fury(?), yeah, that's right.
EK: Bobby could hear. There's nobody he ever recorded in his life, but the first record he put out on 'em was a hit. Nobody. He might not come back no more, but the first record he put out on 'em was a hit. And that's the same way with Johnny Vincent. He had a golden ear. He could hear stuff, but under that golden ear there was the devil. You know? But-- I mean, actually--if people like him and Bobby woulda played the game right, they'da been billionaires.
CO: Yeah, 'cause they knew what was good.
EK: They--yeah, they--they had all the things to work with, you know? But they didn' wanna play de game right, the way it's supposed to go. Yeah.
CO: Well--now you've also--most people don't realize--that you've got a little funny jig in your career. You took a whole lot of folks--you and Joe Jones, Wardell, Johnny Adams--you made a trip up north--
EK: Smokey.
CO: --to Michigan, and recorded for a very famous label here in town.
EK: Motown.
CO: Motown! Now what on earth caused none of your Motown recordings to come out until recently?
EK: Well, it's simple dealin' with that. They got threatened with a lawsuit if they didn't give one guy who wa' producin' the stuff, Joe Jones, X amount o' dollars--they'd better not put any o' that stuff out on the market. So, rather than to go through any kind o' dilemma with litigation, they say it ain't worth it. Just leave it hang. That's where it at wi' that. Yeah.
CO: But of course, then Berry Gordy found, found his own folks, but you were there early, before he was making hit records. I mean, he still had some hits out, don't get me wrong, but--
EK: Yeah.
CO: --uh, all of a sudden when Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder and everybody else comes along, I guess he figures, well if there's a lawsuit here then, let's--let's work on the guys who're makin' money and I got their contract...
EK: Yeah.
CO: But, please--tell the folks--this is my favorite story, Earl--Earl, did you ever get, uh, any money from Berry Gordy? Did you ever get an advance?
EK: Oh, yeah. I'm prob'ly th' only one got a advance from Berry Gordy.
CO: I think so.
EK: Yeah. Back then. And, uh--they tol' me when I come up there, "We don't give out no advances." And I said, "Well, I could un'erstand whatcher sayin'--but I ain't signin' no contracts unless I get a advance." "You mean to tell me you didn' sign them contracts when you walk in th' door?" I said, "No. I didn' sign no contracts." Then--so the guy talked to me was the vice-president--say, "Well Earl, we gonna straighten this out." You know. Mickey Stevens(?). That wa' Berry--Berry Gordy's right hand man. So, he straightened me out. He gave me what I wanted, the advance and everything, you know.
CO: Yeah, but as I recall, now, the story that I've heard, I've heard from your lips, I was hopin' you might relate to the folks, is that you were all sittin' there and you had your contracts in front of you--and when somebody wasn't lookin' you switched your contract with somebody else and signed that one!
EK: Oh, that was another deal there.
CO: Oh, oh, oh...
EK: Yeah, that was another deal up there, yeah. That wasn't--that was a managerial thing goin' on.
CO: Oh, all right.
EK: Yeah.
CO: I just remember hearin' this, uh--the old switcheroo about Mr. King.
EK: And uh, me'n--yeah--they went t' the bathroom, I let 'im sign mine, I signed his. That was simple as that. Yeah. But--no--ah, it was interestin' to me because, uh, bein' at Motown, now, that's a blessin' in disguise. There ain't no company on Planet Earth--not then, and not in the future--have the systematic thing that they had at Motown. It's unbelievable, it's a well kept secret, but if you inside, you know what's goin' on--and if you're a singer you don't know what's goin' on, 'cause they don't respect singers. Like, they treated singers up there like cattle then. Trust me. They treat singers--if you don't write--if you don't write no song, fo'git it. Fo'git it. That's it. Bottom line. But--the well kept secret up there--everybody is, like if Curtis here producin' somethin', there's nothin' to stop another producer--see he got a problem wi' somethin'--he gonna come help him--with no problem. No, nothin'. He gonna ha' 'self a commune. Man, that thing is unreal. It's unreal what they--and I tol' one o' them guys up there, I said, "Y'all play a cheatin' game. Y'all cheatin' on the marketplace. I know what cher doin'." And, like, ah, I'll give you a good example--say, like, if there is somethin' on the market that's really groovin' or whatever, they'll come up there to some songwriters--they got rooms and rooms and rooms with nothin' but writers in 'em--and they say, "Hey"--the guy'll play somethin' on the piano--"Y'hear this groove here? Play it." The guy'll sit there and play that groove. "Write somethin' to dis." He go to the next room, tell the next guy the same thing--an' the next guy the same thing. Everybody writin' on the same premise. Whoever come out wi' that--whatever come out, they wanna see how many different song they can come out on them same medium--that groove.
CO: And take the best one.
EK: Yeah. OK, give you a good example. Hit song--Aretha Franklin was hot. So, Motown wanted to put out somethin', they put out somethin' on Gladys Knight. Alright? They put out a thing called "I Heard It Through The Grapevine." But guess what? Marvin Gaye had cut that four years before, it was layin' up in the can. His version don't sound nuttin' like her. So what they do, they take arrangers, and have them arrangers up there arrange the same song, three or four different arrangers. Only time they got--hell all broke loose when Wardell got up there. They got three arrangers sittin' up in a pit--in a pool. When Wardell come up there, Wardell was out, he was writin' five arrangements to every one they was--they was writin' up there--in a night. So they had this guy--guy told Wardell, he say, "Oh, man--I heard you arrange." Wardell say, "Yeah, I do a little bit o' arranging." He say, "Here, look. I got a tape I want you to listen to." And Wardell took the tape--but, see, Wardell' room was right next to mine--I could hear him at night, three o'clock, at four o'clock in the mornin'--wi' his foot pattin' on the floor. I know he got them headsets on, listenin'. So, next day we go down by this coffeeshop and that guy was in there. He asked Wardell, he say, "Hey, man, um--did you listen at my tape?" Wardell say, "yeah, I listened at it." He say, "When you think you'll get around to writin' a arrangement on it?" Wardell say, "Yeah, I got it now, you want it?" That guy say, "You do what? I just give you that yesterday!" He say, Wardell say, "Yeah, I got it, in case you wanted it, you know." That dude ran down to Motown and look up on that big blackboard they got in there, and saw where dey had an openin' for de cut, that day? He got up musicians and stuff, man, and went in there and (made that new record?). Then he put the word out, he say, "Man, y'all ain't got to deal with them three cats up there, they got a cat here from New Orlean', man, who'll write them under the ground, bro'." That's why everybody came to Wardell. Wardell came back to New Orlean', he say, "I ain't teachin' school no more. This is it. I done did too many arrangements up there, man. I know where it's at now." That's wha--
CO: Now, one of my favorite Wardell stories is, there was a group that come into town, and their trailer tipped over, as I recall the story. And the charts got wet. And they needed a copyist.
EK: Oh, oh, a copyist! Oh, man! That's awesome. Look--they wanted, uh--they call the union hall, that's how they do that. They wanted a copyist, see, a big band, they got 25 pieces. They want the music. The bus turned over, the music got wet, and everything, all smeared and stuff--and they wanted some music copied. So, quite nat'ly they called the union hall, and uh, see if they could get five or six--maybe ten--copyists to come over there and copy. So they sent Wardell. When Wardell got up to the hotel...the guy say, "Where the rest of the guys?" Wardell say, "I don't know 'bout no rest. They just sent me." You know? So--they sent Wardell up there, and, uh, he said, "Oh, man! This is disgusting." He said, "Well, look, man. Copy as much as you can. This is the minimum(?) of what we want." They put the stuff out, what they wanted. When they come back from lunch, Wardell wa' layin' on the bed lookin' at TV wid his hand' behind his head, bro'. The dude say, "Hey, man! Keep writin', man, don't stop!" He say, "Look! Write as much as you can. We need this tonight, man!" Wardell say, "What you lookin' for, you lookin' for them charts you hired? Here it is right here, bro'." He had copied that whole book! That whole book he done copied! He say--'cause he write fast, man--"Look." And Wardell write fast when he was dippin' wid ink--wi' that ol' india ink? He used to dip that pen--that quill--in there, and write. He don't write with no pencil when he writin' arrangements, 'cause he knew he ain't gonna make no mistake. He write straight out, bro'. That cat say, "Man, you can't lay down in the bed, you got to write! Keep writin' till you pass out, man!" Wardell say, "If you lookin' for that stuff y'all got, there it is right there."
CO: It's all done.
EK: Yeah, it was done. That whole book.
CO: And as I recall, didn't he say to the guy, he says, "I hope you don't mind but I made a few changes--some, some corrections"? 'Cause not only was he writin' it fast, but he was fixin' it while he was fast!
EK: Yeah. Yeah. "This little trumpet part you had there ain't too right right there." Yeah.
CO: "I made some modifications for ya."
EK: Yeah.
CO: "The gig oughta go better tonight."
EK: Wardell, man, it's unreal. I ain't never seen--nor you. He write faster writin' music than I do with a letter. And if you're lookin' at Wordell, say, "Man, this is ridiculous."
CO: Well, I think knowing him--
EK: And he got a problem! He's scared o' dem--he's--he's afraid of--he's afraid o' them other arrangers. And Joe Jones told 'im one night, said, "Man, is you crazy? If I could write like you I wouldn't--man, these suckers up here, man, I'd get a shotgun and run them outa here, bro'! Man!" Wardell just like that. He just nice--
CO: He's a meek mild-mannered...
EK: --Mild, mild-mannered person. You know? But no, he got the technique, man. I asked him how he developed that speed, you know what he told me? Said when he was in the service, an' he had nothin' to do--he used to do with--deal with the band, normally--and, he say when he had nothin' to do, he'd just copy stuff. That's how he developed that speed, see, just copyin'.
CO: Earl, no interview would be complete without you tellin' about some of the wild and crazy times that you spent bein' somebody other than yourself at shows. Now, as I recall--
EK: Shit.
CO: --Guitar Slim--
EK: Man, Gui--Guitar Slim!
CO: --used to not make all of his shows.
EK: Well, he had a problem 'cause he got--he got sick. He got in a accident. And, uh--
CO: Oh, wait a minute, tell the people about the accident.
EK: Well, he got drunk and ran into a parked bulldozer. And, uh, he couldn't--he had dates lined up on him a mile long. He couldn't make none o' them dates because he's in the hospital. Hospitalized. So his manager, Jose Hill(?), knew that I knew all of Slim's songs and stuff, and he said, uh, he tol' my manager, he said, "Look. I need to borrow Earl to go on a tour, to finish up some dates for Slim." Frank say, "Yeah, he can cut it." Y'know? "But, I don't know how y'all gonna pull that off out there." Say, "Them people where we goin' ain't never saw Guitar Slim." So that was the clinch. That was the clinch right there. But, then I was with Slim' band, his band, see? Slim used his band to record with him. So, everything was in the pocket, far as the band. And, uh, I went and played--matter of fact, I fooled Ray Charles. Ray Charles didn't know that wasn't Slim, on there--onstage. I fooled him. I had him fooled awhile, bro'.
CO: And he actually recorded with Slim--
EK: Yeah, he opened the show--
CO: --on some of his most famous--
EK: See, Slim--Ray Charl' opened the show for Guitar Slim. That was on tour. That's why they was workin' there.
CO: Well--now, I could be wrong, but didn't Ray Charles one time impersonate Charles Brown? On the same deal?
EK: No, no, he was--he was in the place of Charles Brown.
CO: Oh, okay.
EK: See, Charl' Brown was 'posed to be on that same show wi' Guitar Slim.
CO: Right.
EK: But Charl' Brown didn't show up 'cause, um, somebody wanted to give him some money to play da races--and, uh, advance 'im some money. But, I was there in Slim' place. Ray Charl' wa' just fillin' in for Charles Brown. Charl' Brown didn't show up. Yeah.
CO: I see. Because Ray obviously stole a lot from Charles Brown.
EK: No, them people--yeah, them people-- oh! That's his idol, man! That's his idol--
CO: Yeah. Nat Cole and Charles Brown.
EK: Man, yeah, Charl' Brown, that's his idol, man!
CO: Now, what happened when you came back into town after you played all these dates pretendin' that you were Guitar Slim? You get back in town. Who was the first person you saw?
EK: Slim. In a--
CO: What was he doin'?
EK: In a nightgown, wid a 'coustic guitar on his back, comin' out' de hospital wid one o' dem women' cases they have makeup in. And he walk up--and I walk dead into Slim. "Earl! Boy! I heard you been out there posin' as me! I'm'a kill you! I'm'a kill you, man!" he say. I say, "What you gonna kill me for? I saved your life." He say, "If you did anything wrong out there, it gonna be on my name. Now, how much money did they pay you?" I say, "Twenty-five dollar." He say, "What? Twenty-five dollar?" He say, "What kind o' crowd there?" I said, "Unbelievable." I said, "Percentage crowd. The money was over, whatever. I don't know what you supposed to get." I say, "The band wa' tryin' to make me jack 'em up. The band kept tellin' me, say, 'Earl. Jack 'em up for some money.' I didn't know. That was my first time bein' out on any kind of road deal. I don't know nothin' bout none o' that." But, Slim say, "They didn' give you no money, huh? Twenty fi' dollar?" He got on the phone. Put that case down in his gown and called Thiboudeau(?), Jose Hill(?). He say, "Earl told me how much money y'all was makin' out there. Y'all didn't pay Earl, y'all gonna pay me." That's what Slim said.
CO: That's right.
EK: "Y'all gonna pay me." And that's what they had to do. Slim had 'em jacked up, man. Because, it was no more than right, you know. I realized he was sick, but--I filled in them dates because me'n him were friends.
CO: That's right.
EK: You know? I didn' care about--it wasn't 'bout the money with me, I--that wasn't a big deal.
CO: No, you were helping a friend.
EK: Yeah, that wasn't a big deal. That wasn't a big deal.
CO: Now, a lot of people don't realize, too, that Slim had a very specialized setup.
EK: Mm-hm.
CO: Now, these days, we all have a guitar and an amp.
EK: Yeah.
CO: What was it that made Slim's setup special?
EK: ...In them days they had no amps like we got nowadays. Slim had somebody make him a rig with some big ol' column speakers. That was unheard of back then. And column speakers that you could hear, and he never used a amplifier. He used a P.A. system. And drive that through them column speakers, man. And then, he used to take a knife and cut them speakers with slits in 'em, so they'd get distortion. And rattle. And stuff. Slim was--Slim was a maniac, bro'. Trust me, I love 'im to death but he was a maniac. (?Boy that took--the stuff.) "Now see--Earl--don't you ever try this, boy, 'cause you look like a darn fool if you try dis." That's what he would say. Some shit like that.
CO: And now Slim was also known for some of his--I mean, you've been called colorful--you've been called a beautiful dresser--and the people have remarked about your hair--but I have to admit--tell the folks why that you pale in comparison to the master.
EK: Huh?
CO: What did he used to do? What did--
EK: You talkin' 'bout Slim?
CO: Yeah.
EK: Man--see, today you can go in the store and buy any color shoe you wanna buy. Back in them days they had one--or two--colors you could buy--black and brown and white. Slim used to go buy him a pair o' white, o' white shoes; and if he's wearin' a purple suit, or red suit, he'd take them shoes and go to the hardware an' get some paint. He want some purple paint, he get that. And paint them shoes and put 'em out on that shed to dry in the sun. You know, come out there with that. Ain't no color--any color suit that Slim would have, he had people make up stuff. He go to a material place, then he go to the tailor. Funniest thing with Slim, Slim had a Cadillac he wanted--it was blue--and he wanted it painted red. And the guy painted the car. Slim went back there to get the car. The guy say, "It got to dry a little bit more, 'bout two more hours. We have to bake it." Slim say, "I want my car and I want it now." He had on a white suit.
CU: Uh-oh.
EK: And that red car, you can imagine his hand--arm--hangin' out that car, drivin' that car, and that red paint done got all over the sleeve of that white suit, bro'. He wanted that car. "I want my car."
CO: And Slim actually--used to also--at least, he'd dye his hair or paint his hair--
EK: Oh yeah...he'd dye his hair any color, man. That suit, he got a blue suit, he'd dye his hair blue, any o' that stuff. Slim was one of a kind. One of a kind, man. That's why Albert Collins say, "Earl--I moved into New Orleans for 'bout six, eight weeks--n' stay up over--" and I forgot they had rooms over Sam's (?) the sandwich place. You see, 'cause that was right next t'de Tijuana(?). Turn 'round the corner you had the Tijuana(?). He say,"--just to see Guitar Slim, bro'." He say, "Earl--" when I first met Albert he say, "Animal Guitar Slim, man, that's some weird stuff there, bro'...that man...Satan was some'in else, bro'! No, bro'! Uh-uh." See, man, he had a valet wid'im, and uh--well, he had a couple but the last one he had was Jimmy Cole(?). Jimmy Cole(?) used to be with Slim so much that he start' lookin' like Slim. I told him I say, "Jimmy"--Jimmy, Jimmy was a real light-complexioned dude. And I told him, I say, "You know, Jimmy," I say, "You done been with Slim so much you done start lookin' like 'im." "Cause whatever Slim do, he hang with Slim. That was his driver, chauffeur and valet. And so, one night Slim was dead and gone, and I was playin' at a club called the Alamis(?) down in Mississippi in--what the name o' that town in Mississippi?--anyway, man, I walk in th'--on th' side o' th' buildin' and here I am out there tryin' to--the place was so crowded to get in there, I'm out there tryin' to take a leak--and I'm standin' at th' back like this place here, and I saw a shadda--a shadda on th' ground, and I'm sayin' to myself, "That look like Slim behind me"--that's what I'm sayin'--and that was Jimmy Cole(?). Hey look, that sucker was behind me, and he say, "Earl--you oughta be shamed of yourself, boy!" I look. Jimmy Cole(?)...If you catch Slim on th' highway you see two drunks. Jimmy got his feet on top o' the dashboard, Slim in th' back on de seat snorin', bro'. I passed 'em one Mardi Gras day comin' back to New Orleans, and I pulled over there, see if they was all right, and I told them guys in the car, say, "They all right, they just snorin'." You know, I wanted t'see if they were dead or alive, you know...
CO: Now, one of our close friends who died--what now, oh, it's been a while, it's been almost nine years--he was Slim's opening act. He was a--
EK: Who, Thunderbird?
CO: That's right. How'd he get that name?
EK: Yeah.
CO: How'd James Davis become Thunderbird Davis?
EK: James, James--he'd drink plenty o' Thunderbird wine, that's how he got that name! Thunderbird! But, uh--he was a--he was into Guitar Slim.
CO: Well, what T-bird told me, he was opening up for Guitar Slim, and Slim said, "I'm gonna drink this, and you drink that." And they drank so much that he had alcohol poisoning. They took him to the emergency room and one of the doctors--and of course, everybody who was in the hotel room drinkin' came down with, just to see the dead guy, you know--and, uh, one of the doctors said, "So where is that Thunderbird patient?" So after that, he was Thunderbird Davis.
EK: Man, knowin' T-bird, man--knowin' T-bird, man--but he, uh, he really did used to open up for Slim and the band, you know, and uh--
CO: Great singer.
EK: Yeah. Man. T-bird, man. I miss old T-bird. I remember when, in later days, what you talkin' about, when I played a gig wi' T-bird, man, he say, "Earl." You know, he(we?) had that lawsuit.
CO: Yeah.
EK: He never got to spend any o' th' money. But, he said, "Earl. All I want is a white suit. I been wantin' a white suit all my life. And a Cadillac. A white Cadillac." That's wha' he tol' me. I say, "You get that from Slim, bro'."
CO: And I can attest--we were playin' with him the night he died--
EK: I know.
CO: --and you know what he was wearin'. A white suit.
EK: You gotta be kiddin'.
CO: Yeah. Yeah, we--
EK: Woh.
CO: --and he, he never did get his teeth fixed, he had all his teeth pulled out. He was s'posed to get brand new teeth.
EK: He say he wa'--he say he wa' gonna get 'em replaced. Yeah.
CO: And Hammond(?) wouldn't give 'im his teeth. Hammond from Black Top Records.
EK: Yeah.
CO: So, at that point, all he wanted was a white suit and new teeth!
EK: Yeah, man, Bird, man--he was a, a good artist, man. You know?
CO: Now--do you know the story about how Hammond went out to his place with Lloyd Lambert?
EK: Yeah.
CO: Tell the folks.
EK: I heard about it. 'Cause, T-bird saw some people comin' out by his house--and he didn't know whether he had did some'in' or not--and he thought maybe it mighta been the FBI or some'in'. All he could see is some white faces--
CO: White men in suits!
EK: Uh?
CO: White men in suits! Then he got worried.
EK: Yeah, white men in suits. And, look, he got scared. But after, he said, he saw Lloyd--he tol' me, after he saw Lloyd wid 'em, he say, "Well I don't guess Lloyd done set me up. I know Lloyd."
CO: And Lloyd used to be the bass player for Guitar Slim.
EK: Yeah. When he saw Lloyd, he kinda felt comfortable, you know? That's how Hammond and them got into T-bird, man. Hammond would trace somebody down to th' end o' the earth. Like we, you and I, were talkin' 'bout Spencer Wiggin(?)?
CO: That's right.
EK: If I mention that name there, he on 'im now til the face o' th' earth. He will hunt 'im down. To see, are you hooked up, and do you wanna record? And that's the way he did with T-bird. No, but I ain't saw--I ain't saw T-bird in years, man--and he went out there and found him.
CO: Was he in, like...Gray(?), Louisiana, or one o' them...?
EK: Gray(?). Gray(?). Yeah.
CO: Yeah, Bird, he was a hoot. Well, I tell ya, Earl--here's my belief--I love your shows, I love your music, but if we could just sell tickets to when you and me get a chance to chat, we'd both be rich.
EK: Yeah! Yeah, 'cause see--
CO: I'm not even gonna ask you about them off-color Little Richard stories.
EK: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause see--you remember stuff that I done forgot, uh, temporar'ly--and you'll say this thing an' it trigger my mind to think about what's--you know--what's what with whatever.
CO: We'd like to find out what you know about Mr. Albert Collins. When was the first time you met Albert? The first thing that pops into your head about Albert Collins.
EK: No, I met Albert Collins accidental, wid, uh, Ronnie Earl.
CO: Oh, so it was late? You didn't know 'im when he was still in Houston?
EK: Uh?
CO: You didn't know 'im when he was in Houston, you didn't know 'im when he was in California, you musta been back--
EK: Uh-uh, no, I met Album--Albert--in uh, maybe uh, durin' the--whatcha call it?--the 80's and up in there. That's when I met Albert, uh, personally, you know. I knew Albert, you know, 'bout what he was doin', you know, but I mean personally meetin' him one on one. Then we played some gigs together, you know, some, uh, things, the' I got to really get into him. You know, uh, he and I and Ronnie Earl and all us played up in a bunch of gigs together.
CO: You didn't happen to play dominos with Albert, did you?
EK: Nhuh?
CO: You didn't happen to play dominos with Albert, did you?
EK: Domino's, where that's at?
CO: No, I'm talkin' 'bout the game.
EK: Oh, no. Uh-uh.
CO: Okay. So--you still have all your money, then. 'Cause you know that that man was a domino-playin' ----. I learned how to play dominos from Albert Collins, and it cost me quite a bit of money, I might add.
EK: That like Bobby Marchand(?) wa' playin' tonk(?).
CO: Yeah. I(?) played tonk(?) with Bobby.
EK: I used to tell them guys--I used to tell 'em, I say, "Don't play wid 'im." You know? I say, "He gonna take your money." Yeah, and Bobby Marchand(?) would do dat.
CO: You have any remembrances of Luther Allison?
EK: Luther Allison and I were comin' from one gig, it mighta been Wolftrap's, and uh, he had this box wid him--some kind o' heart thing. He tol' me he was waitin' on a heart 'plant. Transplant. And, uh, it wasn't but some months after dat, Luther--Luther had passed away.
CO: It was very quick.
EK: Yeah.
CO: Now, our old drummer used to be Luther's drummer--you remember Rob?
EK: Who?
CO: Rob. Stupid--
EK: Oh, yeah, Rob!
CO: That's how I met Rob, was with Luther.
EK: Yeah, yeah.
CO: He played with him a long time. Any, uh, any interesting stories about Junior Wells? Junior is usually a little crazy.
EK: I saw Junior Wells over there where we was. The first time I saw Junior Wells, in uh, Norway. The first time I had went over there, played wid a Norwegian band. Junior Wells wa' down there actin' a fool, and uh, our old boy was there, he was on crutches, uh--Buddy , Buddy Guy just called his name last night. Uh--
CO: Yeah.
EK: What his name? He used to be Guitar Junior, changed his name.
CO: Oh, Lonnie Brooks.
EK: Lonnie Brooks. He came up there, he was on crutches, man, and I asked him, I said, "Man, what's wrong?" He say he had a blood clot burst in his leg and, uh, that's why he had the crutches. So Junior Wells was in there, every mornin' at breakfast I would see Junior Wells and--and uh, Lonnie Brooks, we all be there in breakfast--and Junior Wells was out there. Out there.
CO: He was a lot of fun, but--
EK: Uh?
CO: But see, you guys were Louisiana boys, right? Now, Lonnie--
EK: But that's my first time meetin' Junior Wells.
CO: Lonnie Lee Baker, he grew up in Louisiana.
EK: I may--I've been knowin' Lonnie Brooks--but that's the first time I met Junior Wells, was over dere--in Norway. That's my first time runnin' int' 'im. But, you know, th'--an' I heard the stories on Junior Wells, 'cause Clifford Antone used t' tell me a lot o' stories. You know. I mean, you know. So--
CO: Well--I shouldn't ask this question, but--where is Clifford right now?
EK: He's still in Austin.
CO: Yeah, but where in Austin?
EK: Walkin' around the streets.
CO: That's not what I hear.
EK: What?
CO: I heard he's got a very small room.
EK: No, he ain't in there yet.
CO: Oh. Alright.
EK: ...I talked to your friend, Cass(?). I talked to Cass(?).
CO: I'm very--I'm very glad. We were just teasin' about that.
EK: No, I talked to Cass(?) after I hung up wit' you. I tol' ya, I say, "I'm'a get Cass, uh, I got to call Cass and, uh, find out what's goin' out there on th' other end." I talked to Cass and he tol' me what's goin' on. You know, everything, he just struttin' around the street, ain't nothin' goin' on now.
CO: And, uh, you don't have anything to say about Clifford's sister, do you?
EK: Susan? Nnnnnooo.
CO: I think you better take the fifth on that, Mr. King.
EK: Well--I ain't got no gig. They didn' gi' me no gig. I wanna get a gig when Clifford is in the swing.
CO: That's right.
EK: Yeah, when Clifford is in the swing, I'll get the gig.
CO: Well? Whattya think? Got any more talk to do? I think it's time for us to enjoy people. Whattya think? This is a great fest and I'm very happy to hear. We're gonna see Robert, we're gonna see our friends, we're gonna get some--
EK: Oh, yeah, Rob--Rob--Robert comin' on, Robert Ward, uh?
CO: Robert and Roberta're gonna be here, right.
EK: Uh? Yeah, yeah, I wanted to see them...
CU: OK. This is the Kalamazoo Blues Festival, it is July 15th, the year 2000, and we're speaking with Mr. Earl King, interview conducted by--
CO: Curt Obeda, leader of the Butanes...
CU: Thank you, gentlemen!
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